Further Interviews with Mao Tse-tung

Owing to space limitations the text of my interviews with Mao Tse-tung in 1936 was not included in its entirety in the original edition of Red Star Over China, although most of it was published in the Shanghai Evening Post & Mercury, February 3, 4, 5, 1937. The following extracts may be of contemporary interest. (Italics added.)

On the Comintern, China, and Outer Mongolia

SNOW：In actual practice, if the Chinese revolution were victorious, would the economic and political relationship between Soviet China and Soviet Russia be maintained within the Third International or a similar organization, or would there probably be some kind of actual merger of governments? Would the Chinese Soviet Government be comparable in its relation to Moscow to the present government of Outer Mongolia?

MAO TSE-TUNG：I assume this is a purely hypothetical question. As I have told you, the Red Army is not now seeking the hegemony of power, but a united China against Japanese imperialism.

The Third International is an organization in which the vanguard of the world proletariat brings together its collective experience for the benefit of all revolutionary peoples throughout the world. It is not an administrative organization nor has it any political power beyond that of an advisory capacity. Structurally it is not very different from the Second International, though in content it is vastly different. But just as no one would say that in a country where the cabinet is organized by the Social Democrats the Second International is dictator, so it is ridiculous to say that the Third International is dictator in countries where there are Communist parties.

In the U.S.S.R. the Communist Party is in power, yet even there the Third International does not rule nor does it have any direct political power over the people at all. Similarly, it can be said that although the Communist Party of China is a member of the Comintern, still this in no sense means that Soviet China is ruled by Moscow or by the Comintern. We are certainly not fighting for an emancipated China in order to turn the country over to Moscow！

The Chinese Communist Party is only one party in China, and in its victory it will have to speak for the whole nation. It cannot speak for the Russian people or rule for the Third International, but only in the interests of the Chinese masses. Only where the interests of the Chinese masses coincide with the interests of the Russian masses can it be said to be "obeying the will"of Moscow. But of course this basis of common benefit will be tremendously broadened, once the masses of China are in democratic power and socially and economically emancipated, like their brothers in Russia.

When soviet governments have been established in many countries, the problem of an international union of soviets may arise, and it will be interesting to see how it will be solved. But today I cannot suggest the formula; it is a problem which has not been and cannot be solved in advance. In the world today, with increasingly close economic and cultural intimacies between different states and peoples, such a union would seem to be highly desirable, if achieved on a voluntary basis.Clearly, however, the last point is of utmost importance; such a world union could be successful only if every nation had the right to enter or leave the union according to the will of its people, and with its sovereignty intact, and certainly never at the "command"of Moscow. No Communist ever thought otherwise, and the myth of "world domination from Moscow"is an invention of the Fascists and counterrevolutionaries.The relationship between Outer Mongolia and the Soviet Union, now and in the past, has always been based on the principle of complete equality. When the People's Revolution has been victorious in China, the Outer Mongolian republic will automatically become a part of the Chinese federation, at its own will. The Mohammedan and Tibetan peoples, likewise, will form autonomous republics attached to the China federation. The unequal treatment of national minorities, as practiced by the Kuomintang, can have no part in the Chinese program, nor can it be part of the program of any democratic republic.

On China as the "Key"

SNOW：With the achievement of victory of a Red movement in China, do you think that revolution would occur quickly in other Asiatic or semicolonial countries, such as Korea, Indochina, the Philippines, and India? Is China at present the "key"to world revolution?

MAO：The Chinese revolution is a key factor in the world situation. …… When the Chinese revolution comes into full power the masses of many colonial countries will follow the example of China and win a similar victory of their own. But I emphasize again that the seizure of power is not our (immediate) aim. We want to stop civil war, create a people's democratic government with the Kuomintang and other parties, and fight for our independence against Japan.

On Land Distribution

SNOW：What is the foremost internal task of the revolution, after the struggle against Japanese imperialism?

MAO：The Chinese revolution, being of bourgeois-democratic character, has as its primary task the readjustment of the land problem——the realization of agrarian reform. Some idea of the urgency of rural reform may be secured by referring to figures on the distribution of land in China today. During the Nationalist Revolution I was secretary of the Peasant Committee[department]of the Kuomintang and had charge of collecting statistics for areas throughout twenty-one provinces.

Our investigation showed astonishing inequalities. About 70 per cent of the whole rural population was made up of poor peasants, tenants or part-tenants, and of agricultural workers. About 20 per cent was made up of middle peasants tilling their own land. Usurers and landlords were about 10 per cent of the population. Included in the 10 per cent also were rich peasants, exploiters like the militarists, tax collectors, and so forth.

The 10 per cent of the rich peasants, landlords, and usurers together owned about 70 per cent of the cultivated land. From 12 to 15 per cent was in the hands of middle peasants. The 70 per cent of the poor peasants, tenants and part-tenants, and agricultural workers, owned only from 10 to 15 per cent of the total cultivated land. …… The revolution is caused chiefly by two oppressions——the imperialists and that 10 per cent of landlords and Chinese exploiters. So we may say that in our new demands for democracy, land reform, and war against imperialism we are opposed by less than 10 per cent of the population. And really not 10 per cent, but probably only about 5 per cent, for not more than that many Chinese will turn traitor to join with Japan in subjugating their own people under the device of the joint "Anti-Red Pact."

SNOW：Other things in the soviet program having been postponed in the interest of the united front, is it not possible to delay land redistribution also?

MAO：Without confiscating the estates of the landlords, without meeting the main democratic demand of the peasantry, it is impossible to lay the broad mass basis for a successful revolutionary struggle for national liberation. In order to win the support of the peasants for the national cause it is necessary to satisfy their demand for land. ……

On Education and Latinized Chinese

SNOW：Could you give me a brief statement of policy concerning …… illiteracy?

MAO：…… As for the problem of illiteracy, this is not a difficult task for a people's government which really wants to raise the economic and cultural standard of the masses. ……

In Kiangsi our Society for the Liquidation of Illiteracy, under the leadership of the Commissioner of Education, has had astonishing successes. It built up in every village groups led by young students, Young Communists and Young Vanguards, to teach people how to read and write. These mass-education schools, hundreds of them, were created by the organized peasantry themselves, and instructed by the enthusiastic Red youths, who freely gave their time and energy to this task, without pay. After three or four years the majority of the peasants in our soviet districts in Kiangsi knew several hundred Chinese characters and could read simple texts, lectures, and our newspapers and other publications.

Our statistics were lost during the Long March, but my report before the Second All-Soviet Congress^[*] contained a full account of the progress made in education, both through the people's mass-education movement, and through the regular school system maintained by the soviets. ……

In Shensi and Kansu there has also been established a Society for the Liquidation of Illiteracy. The cultural level here was formerly much lower than in Kiangsi, and great tasks of education still face us today. …… In order to hasten the liquidation of illiteracy here we have begun experimenting with Hsin-Wen-Tzu——Latinized Chinese. It is now used in our Party school, in the Red Academy, in the Red Army, and in a special section of the Red China Daily News. We believe Latinization is a good instrument with which to overcome illiteracy. Chinese characters are so difficult to learn that even the best system of rudimentary characters, or simplified teaching, does not equip the people with a really efficient and rich vocabulary. Sooner or later, we believe, we will have to abandon the Chinese character altogether if we are to create a new social culture in which the masses fully participate. We are now widely using Latinization, and if we stay here for three years the problem of illiteracy will have been largely overcome. ……

Following are excerpts from 1939 interviews never fully published outside China, where they appeared in the China Weekly Review, Shanghai, January 13 and 20, 1940. (Italics added.)

"We Are Never Reformists"

SNOW：Because the Communist Party of China has abandoned propaganda emphasizing class struggle, abolished its soviets, submitted to leadership of the Kuomintang and the Kuomintang Government, adopted the San Min Chu I[Dr. Sun Yat-sen's Three Principles of the People], ceased confiscating the property of landlords and capitalists, and stopped (overt) organizational work and propaganda in Kuomintang areas, many people now assert that Chinese Communists are in fact no longer social revolutionaries but mere reformists——bourgeois in methods and in aims. How do you answer such claims?

MAO：We are always social revolutionaries; we are never reformists. There are two main objectives in the thesis of the Chinese revolution. The first consists of the realization of the tasks of a national democratic revolution. The other is social revolution. The latter must be achieved, and completely achieved. For the present the revolution is national and democratic in the character of its aims, but after a certain stage it will be transformed into social revolution. The present "becoming"of the social revolutionary part in the thesis of the Chinese revolution will turn into its "being"——unless our work in the present phase is a failure, in which case there is no early possibility of social revolution.

Preparation for Counterattack

SNOW：In what stage, according to your theory of the "Protracted War, "is Chinese resistance at the present time? Has the stage of "stalemate"been reached?

MAO：Yes, the war is in a stage of stalemate, but with certain qualifications. Under the condition of a new international situation, and under the condition that Japan's position is becoming more difficult, while China will not seek a reconciliation, the war is in a stage of stalemate …… the meaning of which (for us) is preparation for a counterattack.

On the Nazi-Soviet Pact

SNOW：I read your comment on the signature of the Soviet-German pact. You seem to think it unlikely that the Soviet Union can be drawn into the European War. …… Do you think the U.S.S.R. would remain neutral, as long as it is not attacked, even if Nazi Germany appears to be near victory?

MAO：The Soviet Union will not participate in this war, because both sides are imperialists, and it is simply robber war with justice on neither side. Both sides are struggling for the balance of power and rule over the peoples of the world. Both are wrong, and the Soviet Union will not become involved in this kind of war, but will remain neutral. …… As for the outcome of the present European war, the Soviet Union cannot be frightened by the threat of the victorious power to herself, whether it is England or Germany. Whenever the Soviet Union is attacked it will have the support of the peoples of various countries, and of the national minorities in colonial and semi-colonial countries. ……

On Soviet Economic Cooperation with Hitler

I had submitted a long list of written questions for perusal by Mao in advance. At this point I interpolated a question outside that list, asking why, if Germany was imperialist and no different from Britain and France, the Soviet Union should participate in Germany's imperialist adventure to the extent of making available to Germany Russia's great reserves of wheat, oil, and other war materials. Why, incidentally, did Russia continue to lease oil lands to Japan in Sakhalin, or to give Japan fishing rights? The latter were of great value in enabling Japan to export large quantities of fish, and thus establish foreign credits with which to buy munitions and carry on a "robber imperialist"war against the "national liberation movement"of "semicolonial China."

Mao replied that it was an extremely complicated question, and could not be answered until one saw the end of the policy. The conditions under which the Soviet Union was selling oil to Japan were not clear to him. In any case, the Soviet Union was supplying neither Germany nor Japan with any war instruments, and to maintain ordinary trade did not make her a participant in the war.

I asked whether there was any difference, in modern war, between supplying a belligerent with fuel for tanks or airplanes and supplying the tanks and planes themselves. Why was the United States a participant in Japan's imperialist invasion of China because she sold Japan the raw materials of war, but the Soviet Union not a participant in Germany's imperialist war in Europe, nor Japan's war in Asia, when she supplied the same kind of materials to the two combatants?

Mao conceded that the distinction between trade in war materials and trade in war instruments was not great. What mattered, he said, was whether the country in question was really supporting revolutionary wars of liberation. In that judgment there was no question where the U.S.S.R. stood. She had given positive support to revolutionary wars in China, in 1925-27, in Spain, and in China at present. The Soviet Union would always be on the side of just revolutionary wars but would not take sides in imperialist war, though she might maintain ordinary trade with all belligerents.

On the Question of Poland

MAO：The Nazi invasion of Poland presented the Soviet Union with this problem：whether to permit the whole Polish population to fall victim to Nazi persecution, or whether to liberate the national minorities of Eastern Poland. The Soviet Union chose to follow the second course of action.

In Eastern Poland there is a vast stretch of territory inhabited by 8, 000, 000 Byelo-Russians and 3, 000, 000 Ukrainians. This territory was forcibly seized from the young Soviet Socialist Republics as the price of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty, and fell under the domination of the reactionary Polish Government. Today the Soviet Union, no longer weak and young, takes back its own, and liberates them. ……Pao An, July 25, 1936

Mao Praises Fellow Leaders

As a kind of postscript to the end of his account of the Long March, Mao attributed its successful conclusion to the "correct leadership"of the Party and then singled out eighteen comrades by name. As the remarks seemed somewhat anticlimactic to the main account I did not use them, but today these sentences may be of some historical interest. Attention need hardly be called to the order in which Mao listed the names, to the fact that they included men with whom Mao had but recently struggled and against whom he would struggle again, and to the names omitted.

MAO：Another reason for its[the Party's]invincibility lies in the extraordinary ability and courage and loyalty of the human material, the revolutionary cadres. Comrades Chu Teh, Wang Ming, Lo Fu, Chou En-lai, Po Ku, Wang Chia-hsiang, P'eng Teh-huai, Lo Man, Teng Fa, Hsiang Ying, Hsu Hai-tung, Ch'en Yun, Lin Piao, Chang Kuo-t'ao, Hsu Hsiang-ch'ien, Ch'en Chang-hao, Ho Lung, Hsiao K'eh——and many, many excellent comrades who gave their lives for the revolution——all these, working together for a single purpose, have made the Red Army and the soviet movement. And these and others yet to come will lead us to ultimate victory.